A friend of mine and a friend of his have a little back and forth going on FB and I wanted to respond to some of the comments they made. The FB format sucks for internet conversation so I'm going to address them here. They are both good guys and I agreed to lay off personal attacks. If you know what I mean, ahem, Toma.
Stumps and Soapboxes
0 Points
FB spillover
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 aztcc |
FB spillover |
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03/19/10 1:36 AM |
Last Edited By: aztcc 03/19/10 2:13 AM.
Edited 1 time.
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aztcc |
#1 | |||
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03/19/10 8:53 AM |
The reason this analogy doesn't work is because you can't really choose what illness you are going to get like you can with pizza options. Plus it mischaracterizes the health bill as some super delux cadillac plan when it's really designed to curb insurance abuses and force them to provide actual health care. The ingredients are here: and parsed here: Here's a better analogy: Saying atheism is a religion is like saying bald is a hair color. |
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aztcc |
#2 | |||
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03/19/10 8:59 AM |
RK:I said that: " It's not in this bill but should be. As it stands, insurance companies and big pharma are taking money directly from you because they can." Can you provide a link with the same language..."73% of Americans say we should SCRAP this bill and start over."? By "move on" we meant personal attacks yes? Have you seen any? |
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aztcc |
#3 | |||
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03/19/10 9:47 AM |
PM:
by 'bad format', I meant the proposed bill. My family, in the short term (in 5 years when the benefits of the bill would begin) would benefit, but in the long term, I believe it would be a disaster. More red flags to me are: Pelosi stating Tuesday that she 'doesn't know what's in the bill and that we'll find out what's in it after we ...pass it'. Harry Reid admitting last Saturday that, in fact all premiums will go up, not down if this is passed. / We begin paying for it now but no benefits begin until 2015 / Initial estimated cost (out today) by CBO (before adjustment to cover Cornhusker Kickback/ LP /Gatoraide etc) is $940 Billion. (Keep in mind that medicare's projected 20 year cost maximum as sold to the American public was never supposed to exceed $10 Billion) --- Currently, the real cost is $500 Billion. They missed by 50-fold. Can you imagine the cost if they (government) miss this by just 3 or 4 fold?You're seeing this with a Fox filter. Many of the features will kick in immediately. Most notably is the provision for kids and taking out rescission for people that become critically sick under a plan. Those will start right away. In other words, your kids are covered if they get real sick. Premiums will rise but at a much slower clip. And they won't be rising because of the bill - they will be rising because insurance companies haven't been reigned in enough. Pelosi's statement was perfect to seize on if your Republican but entirely unfair. She was talking about details that were currently in mark-up. None of which would make or break the bill. Her comments aren't scary at all if you look at it in earnest. In related news, a "fist bump" isn't a "terrorist fist jab". The original cost of medicare example you sited is a very ordinary rouse to get conservatives riled up. A candy bar back then might be a nickel and now costs a dollar. Still amazingly, we can afford one and might even consider it a good deal. If you follow that logic the candy bar will eventually cost 20 dollars then 400 dollars. Essentially, your argument is to pass on the 1 dollar candy bar because it might be 400 dollars later. That's all fine but with the health care issue...people are dying and conservatives aren't factoring that in. |
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aztcc |
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03/19/10 10:29 AM |
PM:
I know I won't convince you otherwise. Suffice to say that I don't know of a government program that a) works efficiently and b) costs what it was estimated to have cost. For that very general reason, I don't want the government to take over such a large portion of my life. If you're cool with it, no problem. I just don't have that much faith in the federal govt.Nobody is going to convince anyone. My theory is that we're just wired differently. You couldn't possibly think like a liberal just as I couldn't think like a conservative. Having said that, there are some people that were just brought up liberal but there's nothing liberal about them and vice-versa. That's why you always hear "I was a life long Republican until Bush...etc". For a while I was hearing that everyday. Interestingly enough, you don't hear that said about Obama even when you factor in his faults. Anyway, we can talk facts so there are a few things we could iron out. First, the government won't be "taking over" health care from our perspective. Insurance companies might see it differently and they have been masterful and damn near Obi Wan-ish in convincing Republicans that their interest is your interest. The "government take over" language comes from them and people that financed the Teabaggers. Well well...tort reform. You know Obama supports tort reform right? Monsieur PM, will you be joining me in my support for Obama's tort reform plan? Puts Republicans in a pickle. They say they want it but not if it's Obama's plan....what to do - what to do.  Oh, one little item about faith in the government. Many of the government programs like FEMA that worked great under democratic leadership fell apart under republican leadership. A big part of the problem is that conservatives don't or can't or won't operate a social program very well. Then when it craps out they blame government. PM...I don't know how to put it any clearer...this bill will make our children safer in a few months. Say a kid gets leukemia. Insurance will have to cover them and can't kick them off if they already have insurance. (Trust me, they do it) For me, that's a tangible benefit because I sweat those things everyday. And, it seems like a good deal...all for the very low price of umm...reduced premiums. |
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RichardJKirk |
It was BAD for MASS, it is BAD FOR U.S. | #5 | ||
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03/20/10 11:31 AM |
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RichardJKirk |
"You couldn't possibly think like a liberal..." | #6 | ||
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03/20/10 11:32 AM |
One word (or sound): "WHEW!"
I mean really, if you didn't have to, would you? |
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aztcc |
#7 | |||
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03/20/10 7:03 PM |
http://www.boston.com/bos...re_reform_is_failing_us/
Interesting you quoted an article that is for single payer, universal coverage... What would such a system provide? The prestigious Institute of Medicine, part of the National Academy of Sciences, has defined five criteria for healthcare reform. Coverage should be: universal, not tied to a job, affordable for individuals and families, affordable for society, and it should provide access to high-quality care for everyone |
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Standard American |
#8 | |||
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03/22/10 9:10 AM |
Also from the opinion article:
There is, though, one US model of healthcare that meets the Institute of Medicine criteria: Medicare. Insuring everyone over 65, Medicare achieves universal coverage and access to care, is not tied to a job, and is affordable for individuals and the country. Medicare simplifies the administration of healthcare dollars, thereby saving money. We need to improve Medicare, and expand this program to include everyone. Snarky comment deleted. Draw your own conclusions. |
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